It’s a sin
It’s all my fault, really.
I made a silly comment to Tacy over a week ago in the parking lot at Target. I don’t even know what I was referring to, but I said, “It’s a sin.” Which sparked a conversation for which I wasn’t prepared.
For the rest of the drive to her friend’s house for a playdate, I answered questions about God and religion and faith and science. I explained that there are many questions about the world that are yet unanswered. That many people answer those questions via religious beliefs. That many people take those beliefs very seriously. That her daddy and I turn to science to provide explanations instead, even in those areas where science hasn’t yet answered all the questions.
When we arrived at her friend’s house, I mentioned to her friend’s mother – whom I like very much – the conversation we’d just had, without disclosing any beliefs (or lack thereof). She agreed that it was a difficult topic and asked whether we attended church. I said no, and she said that they didn’t either.
The subject remained dropped until Friday afternoon.
We’d come home from another playdate and I’d taken CJ upstairs for a nap while Tacy ate her token green vegetable of the day. I came downstairs to find the peas untouched and my child on the verge of tears.
Once the sobs subsided long enough for me to understand her, she choked out that her friend (from the playdate last weekend) and her friend’s mother believe in God, and that “They think God’s real, but God’s not real! It’s breaking my heart!”
It is possible to laugh and cry at the same time. I did it.
I held her close while she cried, because there really wasn’t anything I could say. What I did say apparently only made her feel worse – that her daddy had believed in God because his parents told him God was real. She was vaguely reassured when I told her that her daddy no longer believed in God.
What baffled me most was that she seemed offended – that she couldn’t understand why other people would believe something that seemed so ludicrous to her. As she put it: “I don’t see a man sitting in a golden chair on top of a mountain!” It was almost as if she felt they were trying to play a trick on her, that their beliefs were a betrayal.
And because of the nature of her objections, the comparison of God to Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy is illogical. There’s a reason for Santa, a reason for the Tooth Fairy. She cannot see a reason for God.
This isn’t the first time we’ve unwittingly upset her by apparently giving more information than she was prepared to handle, and I’m sure it won’t be the last.
October 22nd, 2006 at 9:53 am
That’s gotta be a tough one – I can’t imagine. I don’t believe in God either, but would want my child to have the choice in how he/she would choose to define faith. Trying to explain that would be mindboggling to me.
More power to any parent who has to go through that conversation!
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:08 am
I am SO not looking forward to this. I’m agnostic myself, but the hubs has a bit of reluctant faith in him. Part of me wants to just drag my kids to a different church every month and let them explore different religions – like a cultural experiment. My parents were non-religious, but allowed me to tag along with my friends whenever I wanted to go to church.
Gah! It’s such a complicated thing to explain to a child!
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:13 am
I have held off on having the Mom and Dad don’t believe in God conversation with my kids, because I still haven’t worked out my own feelings on the subject. I don’t believe in God, but I understand the reasons why people have faith. Nathan plays with the grandson of my next-door neighbor, and the whole family is very religious. One day, the grandson told Nathan that he (Nathan) was going to Hell because he didn’t go to church. If Nathan wants to believe in God and going to heaven, I feel like I have to let him, and even give him the opportunity to learn more about it.
This is a tough subject. I’m writing a post about it next month for NaBloPoMo.
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:37 am
Yeah, not looking forward to that conversation. I’m way more comfortable with our current anatomy lessons. Sheesh …
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:57 am
I can’t think of anything to say, but appreciated the post and didn’t want to just lurk.
October 22nd, 2006 at 12:12 pm
“It’s breaking my heart!” She’s so sweet. It’s amazing how hard it is for kids to see shades of gray sometimes. But it sounds like you did a great job tackling the topic.
October 22nd, 2006 at 12:25 pm
I don’t envy you. We have some “religious” interference from the in-laws which adds a bit to the confusion.
And the death talk…heheh. That’s always fun!
October 22nd, 2006 at 12:40 pm
ahhh. yes. M is too young still, but it’s already arising…grandparents pray before eating, so M sometimes expects it and it’s certainly something we don’t do…and how we raise our child to be free in mind and free in choice, without the pollution, is a tricky concept indeed. terrific post.
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:19 pm
The God stuff is really hard, and I think you handled it well. I had to laugh at ther comment about it breaking her heart. She sounds like a smart little cookie.
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:26 pm
That’s the toughest thing yet, isn’t it? People dress up like Santa…so that kids will believe in something that doesn’t exist. Yet, organized religion can’t go that far to convince us that God does exist. I belive in a higher power, but I can’t prove it to my kids. That’s for them to decide. In the meantime, the hypocrisies of the world keep mounting and I’m called upon to explain them one by one. LIke I said…a tough gig.
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Wow! I’m not sure what to say, but your post made me think. I’m a little stunned at how many commenters don’t believe in God. More than I expected. I suppose I live in my own Catholic bubble sometimes.
I believe in God because I feel blessed every day for all the little miracles in my life. I can’t imagine not believe in our creator.
I’m glad you were able to give Tacy the best explanation that suits your own beliefs.
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Dana, you illustrated perfectly why I emphasized to Tacy that many people DO believe, and they take those beliefs very seriously. I don’t mean for her to adopt our beliefs, as they developed over years and years of thought and experience, but I want her to think for herself and respect others’ rights to do the same.
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:06 pm
If it helps any, you can tell Tacy that there’s a 34 year old girl who believes in God AND science, and she’s happy that way. Sometimes it still breaks her heart when she doesn’t understand things. But that just means there’s more to learn and to grow from which is really kinda cool.
The compassion she showed speaks well for her. You giving your kid peas, though… I don’t know, man. That’s borderline animal cruelty.
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Dylan has had an issue with the subject of boobs recently, but nothing yet about the subject of God. Your situation sounds slightly more difficult.
It also just occurred to me that your playdate last Friday was at my house (duh). Did we bring up the subject over lunch? I don’t recall discussing it, but I hope I didn’t say anything to set her off. I’m used to a kid that has topics go in one ear, jingle around a bit and then fly out the other ear. Since our beliefs, or lack thereof, are in line with your’s, I know we sometimes discuss the subject a bit freely. I’m trying hard not to traumatize kids that I don’t give birth to.
Stacey
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Wow. That was intense. It is so amazing to me that she would say it was breaking her heart that her friend and her mother believe in God. I wonder if she feels like they are being decieved, like the wool is being pulled over their eyes, and that is what is heartbreaking. Or I wonder if she feels that it is heartbreaking that she doesn’t believe and some people DO have this belief in this all powerful being- and the divide of that breakes her heart?
I can’t even imagine.
Provocative post. What an amazing little girl.
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:24 pm
I must second what Kristin said. I believe in both God and science as well. For instance, I find it hard to believe that we’re all here because two people in a garden ’sinned’, but on the other hand, it’s equally hard for me to believe that there is not a great intelligence behind the existence of well…everything.
I believe in evolution, but I believe that God made the world so that it would evolve, in it’s own time. Through science.
On the other hand, I have a 19 year old son whose dog tags declare him to be an atheist. When he was home on leave after basic training, I asked to look at the tags and he didn’t want to let me, because he was afraid of what I would think of him. What I think is he’s a person with his own beliefs and that I will always love and respect him, even when (and sometimes because) he doesn’t agree with me.
What an awesome, thought provoking post Mama Goose. Even if you are a heathen. (Joke!!) Actually, my aunt called me a heathen once for declaring my disbelief in Hell, simply because I couldn’t imagine *my* God sending people to Hell for not ‘takng Jesus Christ into their hearts’. What about those who had never heard of Jesus Christ? What about those of other religions? They had to go to Hell for not being raised Southern Baptist? I don’t think so.
So, if you’re a heathen, so am I.
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:55 pm
My father attended the undergraduate religion program at Princeton and graduated an atheist. As a child, I often had Saturday night sleepovers at a friend’s and attended Lutheran church with them the next morning (unless we went skiing). So I had a lot of religious education without realing owning any of it. I guess I moved to the other side of the pendulum’s swing with my daughter: we’re sending her to a Catholic Elementary School. I agree with the moral tenets of Christianity, and I want help giving her a foundation. I will definitely be there to help her find answers when she wants to explore other religions (in fact, we spent a lot of time last December making play-doh menorahs).
October 22nd, 2006 at 8:40 pm
Hmmm. Well, I’m a devout Christian, and I believe in a God who gave us brains for a reason. Sounds like Tacy has been using hers quite a bit. I’m glad she has a mama who gives her the freedom to learn about things with it.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:46 pm
I appreciate everyone’s comments, thoughts, beliefs and the respect with which they treat one another on a sensitive subject. I wish more relgious/ethical/moral debates in our country could be handled with such class and decency–well done!
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:59 am
*shudder*
At least you know what you believe. Me? I’m so undecided that I’m afraid I’ll be a horrible example for Hailey.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:15 am
Jenny~ It’s a good thing. Why shouldn’t she see you ask, wonder, try, succeed and flop? She’s going to do the same thing herself throughout her life, just like the rest of us. These are huge, huge issues. Indecision seems a lot better to me than apathy or neglect. Yay for not knowing!
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:34 am
You did the right thing. Better to give her as much info as you can. Better to hear it from you first, even if it’s a bit over her head at the moment. Phew. I wonder what comes next?
October 23rd, 2006 at 10:32 am
We haven’t gone down this road with our children yet. I’m Buddhist in name and my hubbie is Catholic in name as well. Our belief is to live life honestly, treat people with respect, help the unfortunate and that’s it. We don’t need anyone to tell us that we “must pray for our sins” or we’ll go to hell, etc…
My in-laws were very adamant about pushing their beliefs onto me and my children, but I basically ignored that and now they don’t even bother. WHY do people think that they can push their religion on someone else? I don’t get it. I guess that’s the reason for the many wars in this world.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:11 am
Waya~ Evangelism -or propagation of the religion- is a tenet in a lot of different religions. It’s how they survive, by being taught and introduced to others. But yeah, a lot of people definitely get overzealous and push it down your throat, making it unpalatable just by the way it’s delivered. They don’t seem to realize they’re doing their faith a disservice. In-laws are by definition nuts (I still love you, Junie), but is it fair to say they were trying to teach their grandchildren the values they gave their dad and the ones they practice? Or were they just being … in laws?
MGM~ I swear I’m not trying to hijack your blog, I just love this sort of discussion.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:30 pm
This reminds me of a playdate at our house when my daughter was just 5. Her father (now my Ex), who fancies himself a Buddhist but who is really more of a snobby and vocal atheist, instilled her with all this disrespectful, anti-religion rhetoric at a very tender age. My daughter and her 5-year old friend were playing very nicely on the back porch when suddenly I heard what sounded like a shouting match. I ran out to see why they were suddenly so pissed at each other, and they were actually fighting over the existence of God! My daughter was taunting the other girl to show her God and saying she wasn’t afraid of Hell, that the Devil should come right now and hit her! The other girl was appalled and screaming about how God was TOO real, etc, etc. It was awful! I consider myself an agnostic rather than a Christian, and I was just too embarrassed to mention this fight to the girl’s mom when she was picked up. I had a long conversation with my daughter after her friend left, but I think she’s only just now getting to where she understands why she should be respectful of others’ beliefs. Oy!
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Wow, that is tough. I think you handled it as best you could.
I have no idea what we’ll teach our daughter. My husband was Jewish but is now athiest, and I was raised Christian (mix of Catholic – Presbyterian) but consider myself a unitarian now (my belief being a mix of science and life energy/reincarnation). But your post has made me realize I should start thinking about it now.
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:48 pm
I’m in the camp of believing in both God and science. And though I’m Catholic, I also believe in things like reincarnation that don’t go hand in hand with my denomination.
I’m pretty surprised by the number of commenters who don’t believe in God. Not that I’m passing judgement on that AT ALL. I think people have the right to believe whatever they want to. Makes the conversation more interesting. And anyway, we really DON’T know whether God exists do we? I guess we’ll all find out eventually.
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Wow, such big questions for such a little one. I think a respectful exposure to the world’s religions – kind of a cultural dialogue more than a religious one – will leave her with a nice background if she decides to develop a spiritual path of her own as she gets older, and your rational/scientific approach will teach her to think about religions critically so she won’t end up in a cult or something extreme.
I was raised in a fairly anti-religious environment – I was taught that religion was a way to control you and extract money from you. When I joined a church at about 26, my parents were mildly horrified and continue to ask questions like “Do they make you give them money?”
There is no way that I can convince my parents to come to any church activities – even the non-religious ones, which is most of them, since my church is more about living happily than about talking about religion or dogma. They still think they are going to somehow get sucked in and verbally abused for their beliefs. It is kind of sad.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Yeah, man. That’s tough. We’re raising Archer Jewish but my husband’s an athiest and I’m kind of a hippie when it comes to God. I’ll probably compare God to the wind. You can’t really see it but sometimes you can feel it in your hair.
I always end up in the most uncomfortable position at work, though. It’s not easy having terminally ill kids ask if I believe in heaven/ think they will end up there.
I always say, yes, even though I think heaven is a crock of shit.
It kind of makes me understand why religion is important. It’s for the people who need hope, so I have to admit, I regularly go along for the ride.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:47 pm
bob hasn’t brought this up yet. i’m atheist, i would consider ben agnostic. his parents aren’t really anything, but i’m sure they would say they believe if asked. my parents, on the other hand, are bible-thumpers. which makes for very uncomfortable scenarios, such as when my mom gives bob a t-shirt that says “god’s little warrior” on it and i end up giving it to goodwill. i guess in that respect, it’s a good thing my parents aren’t big on kids and don’t spend a lot of time with bob–at least they’re not proselytizing, even if they are ignoring him.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Hmmm….tough subject, Julie. I think you handled it just fine, really. I am on the fence what to do with my own kids. I find myself evaluating my own beliefs quite often, yet I can’t quite come to a consensus what to tell my kids. Bottom line: I believe there is a God, which is open to interpretation. Howver, I have a problem with organized religion for me and my own family. I think it is because I associate religion with guilty feelings and I always resented that. That is based on my personal life experiences.
This certainly won’t be the last time you’ll be in a position where a belief you have will be questioned by your child who is exposed to others who think and believe differently. Hang tough…trust yourself and your own beliefs.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:46 pm
I know how Tacy feels.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Oh yeah. So hard to explain to a kid, particularly when you are not so sure yourself. (And by “yourself”, I mean myself.) Isaac suddenly has started begging to go to church which surprised me, until I realized that he had heard that people “pray” in church, and he thought that meant “play”.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:59 pm
I’m a believer with a Master’s degree in genetics. So, yeah, the two are not mutually exclusive.
I also find the “It’s breaking my heart!” exclamation very interesting. I wonder if her friend and that mom are having a similar conversation and feeling heartbroken that Tacy doesn’t believe.
I’m not saying she or you or anyone else should: I respect all paths, including atheism. It’s just funny to think that, simply put, it’s all relative.
October 24th, 2006 at 6:15 am
Oh man, I do not look forward to THAT conversation.
Lisa
October 24th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Julie, that is deep stuff. I do believe in God, however I am a huge skeptic of organized religion as is my husband. And we live in the Bible Belt. Yea rah. We are not currently attending church regularly (my next door neighbor is a minister of music at a Southern Baptist church and has more than once grated on my nerves with his forced “witnessing” to us…he can be extremely condescending which just serves as a reminder why I loathe organized religion…not all, but much of it). I am really struggling to find a church where we feel comfortable. I grew up attending church two, sometimes, three times a week. I’d like my girls to have that background, just as I did, and then make their own decisions about God. I guess now I don’t feel like I “need” the approval of organized religion to worship God. It’s a tough thing, sharing our beliefs with our children without forcing them on them but allowing them to soak it all in and make their own decisions. Sounds like you are doing a great job, though, and this is just a precursor of things to come when your girls get older.
October 24th, 2006 at 11:48 am
I like your Pet Shop Boys reference in the title.
October 24th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Wow. You know it was really exciting to see such a respectful discussion about such a volatile topic.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve given TMI to my kids. I’ve learned to tell them that sometimes I don’t know how to explain everything so that they can understand. Sometimes we all have to live without answers.
October 25th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Ah, yes. I have no idea how this will go with us, or when it will happen. Neither Scott nor I believe. However, we’ve got statues of Greek gods on our mantelpiece, and we read Byron the mythology of many cultures (including Christian) that believe in many different gods. He can identify Buddha, Ganesha, and Apollo on sight. I think if anybody ever asks him if he believes in God, it will strike him as a vaguely ridiculous question — there they are, over on the mantelpiece! There are lots of stories about them! They’re as real as Anansi and Red Riding Hood and Tacky the Penguin!
We may be in for a long, confusing ride…
October 26th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Mimi’s asked me why we don’t go to church like some of her friends do. I didn’t come up with a good answer, and since she didn’t pursue it, I let the subject drop. (I’m kind of afraid of this topic — as IAI said, even the anatomy stuff doesn’t seem quite as daunting.)
Sounds like you handled it wonderfully, as I’d expect you would.
October 27th, 2006 at 12:33 am
Tacy amazes me with her wisdom and logic.
I do believe in God (one who created science; thus the two are not exclusive,) but I found this story humorous – and Tacy just astounds me.
October 27th, 2006 at 2:43 am
don’t have the energy to say anything profound right now but wanted to say i liked the post and the tone and the tone of the comments too. being agnostic and daddy atheist does present it’s challenges especially when everyone around you is a christian theist and just doesn’t get you. thanks, this makes me feel a little less alone